Gunners divided – An Uncivil Civil War!

Fans are debating the unthinkable about Wenger

Delighted to welcome back my closest Gooner pal on twitter and regular guest, Andy Wood @Yorkshiregunner. We don’t always agree on Arsenal, we bicker like old house wives, we make each other laugh,  but we both know how much the other loves our club. This being the case and Andy knowing how positive I am all the time, often irrationally, he felt I might not want to post his latest. However I read it once and read it again and to be honest this is written from the heart, with a great degree of soul searching and it certainly moved me. Andy over to you…..

I will start this piece by stating I am neither an AKB nor a member of the WOB, I am simply a long term supporter home, away and occasionally abroad of Arsenal Football Club.

The past week or so since the Norwich debacle has seen many debates on Twitter about the current manager of Arsenal Football Club. Arsene Wenger to many IS Arsenal Football Club, to even suggest unhappiness at the way he manages our club provokes huge and often irrational outbursts and one chap has even told me he received death threats. I saw someone tweeting on Saturday news of home fans fighting after the match inside the ground, presumably it was either over Arsene or someone knocked someone else`s Fish & Chips over!  It is my belief no one at Arsenal should be above criticism, it is also my belief that our clubs problems can and should be discussed in a reasonable manner.

Let me put it on record the fact I love Arsene Wenger, (how could any Arsenal Fan say otherwise?) I am just no longer IN love with him. He just no longer does those things he once did for me. It`s not you Arsene, it`s me! I loved the way when he came to England he took on and beat the best the rest of England could muster. He danced around on his toes like a young Ali and while the Heavyweights like Fergie couldn’t lay a glove on him, he`d then soften them up with rapier like jabs before the usual KO.


Arsene was like this once…………


Wenger like Ali out thought, out moved and out punched other managers

Like Ali he also spoke eloquently and often courted controversy and ridicule by everyone outside the club with bold statements. Yes bold statements such as the fact he thought he could lead a side unbeaten through a whole season. At that time Wenger had the cojones and the tools to actually achieve it. Sadly these days as ‘The Greatest’ found out to his cost, time and tide wait for no man. Cretins such as Pulis come in now and manage to give Arsene the occasional bloody nose and stick him on his arse. All the greats bow out sometime, sadly usually when their once all encompassing powers have waned and they become mortal like the rest of us.


Many fans think Arsene is now like this……………….

Is Wenger like Ali now? Punch drunk?

Let us never forget that Arsene Wenger altered the very nature of football in this Country, his methods have been taken on and utilised by most clubs and let`s not also forget he took an ageing defence that was written off by most of the media and a great many Arsenal Fans and extended players careers and won Titles and Doubles with his ethos.


Dennis Bergkamp was the Greatest Footballer I`ve seen in an Arsenal Shirt, he did things on a football pitch that very few people have ever been able to do. What would people say if Dennis Bergkamp was still playing up front for us at the moment? Would people be happy for Bergkamp to still command a place in the team because of what he used to be able to do? Because he once was the best? Because we owe him such a huge debt? No? Then why do people want to persevere with a manager who hasn’t won anything in almost a decade?

Get your suit of and get your kit on Dennis!!

Debates on Arsene are impossible to hold such is the love people have for him. I asked this week, at what point should Arsene leave our club? When he`s 80? I was called out for making snide remarks about him. Is he so untouchable that he is beyond questioning?

I tweeted during the week people who still want Arsene in charge are akin to people staying with a partner they no longer love simply because they used to give them hot sex years ago. I was told we should still love him for his loyalty and what he has achieved for us in the past. I do still love the bloke, I just feel we need to take the club “Forward” again and personally feel someone else could and should do that. There are plenty of candidates who I`d like but that`s a subject for another day. But I don’t agree with the level of disrespect shown to Arsene by a lot of people who want him out. I would love to see Arsene leave our club on the shoulders of the Players after winning the CL but I honestly can`t see that happening.

The very fact people want to discuss Arsene`s future would have been unheard of 10 Years ago. I don’t get this he keeps us top 4 every season though argument either. Yes he has, but we have limped over the line a number of times and lessons haven’t been learned it seems. When (if) we do fail half of our cash reserve will go toward the shortfall created with no CL football that season. Our Board have always stated we have cash to spend if Arsene deems it necessary, it seems Arsene doesn’t think we need to invest in our squad to win the title back from City/Chelski/Utd….unless the Board are telling lies of course, which one could assume Arsene knows they are lying but is happy to take the flak for them?

I don’t hate the guy, I don’t want to hate the guy, I don’t want other people to hate the guy… I just want a trophy winning Arsenal back (and despite people saying things to the contrary I don’t class 4th a trophy), and sadly I don’t believe under Arsene Wenger we can achieve that at the moment. I don’t want or expect to change anyone`s opinions, I just would like to see Arsenal Fans talk about it in a reasonable manner and not to rip our club apart in a very uncivil civil war……………………..

Take a look at the above and tell me what you see?  A Unionist or a Confederate you say? Look again I say it`s Two Americans. AKB`s and WOB`s should take note……

Thanks for your time and thanks again to Dave for allowing me a platform other than 140 characters on Twitter. Feel free to say hello @yorkshiregunner .

Thanks Andy for this thoughtful piece. It is from the heart, that much is obvious and I sincerely hope that the readers will feel your love and passion, whether they or I for that matter agree with you in this instance.


Until next time thanks for reading.

Like what you read? Agree/disagree? Leave a comment below or follow me or comment on this blog on Twitter –



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  1. The reason why we don’t win anymore is simple: MONEY. We could for one season do like City and Chelsea and buy all what can be bought. But then what? They will outbid is and pay even more. We can’t compete financially with them. So that are 2 teams who buy the trophies.
    And then we have Utd who also buys the trophies. They also have more money but not as much as City and Chelsea. But they buy other stuff. Like making sure that refs know their career is in danger if they don’t do what is needed to make them win.
    AW could beat Utd and the refs. But he can’t beat the money teams and the Utd-Ref association at the same time.
    Hell look at how difficult it was for City to win the title with all the money spend….

    1. That would be a whole new can of worms to open up Walter, when it comes to buying referees. But yes, the difference really is the levels of money thrown around.

    2. Not so. We have used our resources poorly … ever since he broke up (too soon) the 2nd great team. Bought some wrong players, played others out of position. Eccentric selections and substitutions. Backed poor players endlessly. No tactical variations – all oppos. know how to plan for us. Obsessed with his grand plan for youthful, beautiful, intellectual, attacking football.

  2. A rare post that discusses the possibility of looking past Arsene without resorting to the vile abuse that plagues so many in the world of Gooners right now. Personally, I do think its a bit simplistic to reduce the lean patch of recent years down to a failure of the manager. There were a lot of factors that get easily dismissed for the sake of convenience when criticism of the manager is concerned.

    While moving to the Emirates, we ended up in a perfect storm of circumstances where we were saddled with huge debt that was bound to limit us financially, but it also coincided with the inflation caused by the entrance of oil money and a corresponding commercial explosion that we found ourselves locked out of due to our previous deals.

    When you consider how we’ve had to generate transfer funds through player sales, some of which was enforced either by their own actions or by their unreasonable wage demands (Again a byproduct of the intro of oil money), our position in the league becomes clearer. Two teams have essentially spent over £1 billion combined to leapfrog our position in the top 2 that we had in the years before moving to the Emirates. Just think about that sum, they’ve spent more than Arsenal as a club is worth based on club value.

    We could never compete with that kind of spending and I would even go as far as to say that considering the revolving door of players leaving for greed (Nasri, Flamini, Hleb, Adebayor, Song, RVP) or personal reasons (Cesc, Toure), and despite being in a state of constant flux because of this, Arsene has managed to keep us miraculously afloat in the highest levels of Europe consistently without fail. This is an achievement that sadly has been taken for granted by many and one need only ask the likes of Liverpool how important the third trophy listed by Arsene is.

    I’m firmly in what people would call the AKB category because I see no one else in the world (barring maybe Klopp) who can do what Arsene does on his kind of limits. I also believe that most of his faults that people find, these are from the convenience of hindsight and not something that could have been predicted or avoided before hand (eg. Kos replacing Per against Chelsea). As for the counter point that is likely to come in on the mythical 70m that we have, we don’t spend for the sake of spending otherwise we’d have bought Tiote for the 25m quoted to us this summer. I think we try to do the right things in a world that is going the wrong way and get criticized for it.

    If nothing else, Arsene deserves to see the efforts of his labour come to fruition when the playing field is levelled with new deals and the enforcement of FFP come 2014. He deserves to step down on a high note and has earned the right to pick his successor who would operate in line with his own principles.

    1. you so are a deep thinker. Alot of factors came into play. comercial explosion like u said and we were tied on our old deals. oil money/ shaddy buisness men coming into d game. NOBODY CAN MANAGE ARSENAL AND KEEP US AT THE LEVEL WE ARE NOW WITH THE JUST BETTER THAN ASTON VILLA RESOUCES OTHER THAN MR. WENGER. You guys should just give this wenger out a rest. we will miss that good man if/when he goes. Just take a look at all he has done for us. yea a few bad decisions here and there but he’s human and we all make mistakes. He achievments/ups far outweighs his low.its easy to see. Will mourinho take a risk on his MIGHTY reputation (selfish man) for a club to win?you know HELL NO he wouldn’t.WENGER CARES. In my opinion he’s better than them all including fergie. Look he does mighty things a team with players just better everton with a sprinkle of one or 2 world class players. the world class players for fuck sake HE MADE.One time he had more fine players than just ‘better than average players’ he went unbeaten. we will get there again.lets allow him work. Meanwhile in a long while he has his best team in years.Thats enough to make u dream know what that good achieve with them.

  3. Where to start?
    Firstly the idea that you would liken a physical activity like boxing ,which is age dependent,to management ,which is clearly not,make a nonsense of your premise.
    You were not called out for making snide remarks for any other reason than you were indeed making petty jokes and being snide about Arsene.It was NOTHING to do with the question you asked.And that you cant see that speaks volumes.You claim to want to have a reasonable debate ,yet are sly and snide in your manner.Calling others to book for theirs.
    People are not saying (at least they should not be)that Arsene should continue because of his past record ,But because he is the best for the job both now and in the future .
    Its a coincidence that his abilities as a manager began to decline when Roman tipped up and we moved Stadium .Put Hey .I suppose its easier to blame him rather than consider a complex reality.

    1. The question still remains are we playing good football??? Is he getting his tactics right. Or is he’s head somewhere else. In the boardroom or economics, but as a coach he is not on par. And you can see that Arsene does not have the bullishness and spark he used to have. Hence he is compared to a boxer who is past his prime.

      1. Are we playing good football?
        Last season:
        Chelsea-Arsenal 3-5
        Arsenal-Spurs 5-2
        Arsenal-City 1-0

        We just don’t do it consistently due to squad depth and injury crisis.

      2. Being consistent is what it is all about and who is to blame for squad depth? I don’t hear you mentioning 8-2 score and the likes? you also have to be consistent in your comparison.

      3. That 8-2 was a fluke result. Played with the players not in the right mind and the new signings haven’t been done.
        I use those several matches later in the season to rebut your argument that “we don’t play good football.”
        We did play well, just not consistently (the two way legs result against Milan was the perfect example).

        Squad depth is tied to budget for players which I highlighted in my other post below. City can have Aguero, Dzeko, Tevez, Balotelli all 20-30 millions players for two positions that we can’t afford to have. Their budget allows Mancini to have that kind of squad depth.

      4. thats so wrong to say.Its very difficult for a team with almunia, song, young walcot, young wilshire to beat a team with yaya toure, kun, tevez ,dzeko, heart, kompany.all extablished class players if u like. but the point is thats the best team we can come up with now keeping in mind no shaddy business man is sugar daddying us. on a normal, this team should just excape relegation. But hey this team fight to the end. well up until match when they burn out and their experience can carry them no longer. Cut wenger some slack.

  4. Well written piece !! It’s Amazing how some people live in the past and just get stuck there! While the present situation looks very bleak. It’s like expecting a boxer who is way past his prime to still perform the way he used to. If you look at the way we are playing football these days and the tactics employed by Arsene Wenger there are lots of question marks. While in ten years time MANU, Chelsea, Man city etc. will have made history we will only be an average club with average ambitions. Almost all players who left like the likes of Nasri, Clichy, Cole and the list goes on have lifted silverware. Now wining silverware is no longer our ambition but to qualify for certain competitions so fans can spend their hard earned money making shareholders rich. Does Wenger have money to spend or doesn’t he? That we don’t know, but somebody is lying. And i hate when people think that everybody else is idiots! Arsenal board and managers don’t care about the club or it’s supporters and players they only care about themselves. And they have done a great job of brainwashing supporters into believing this is about a sustainable model. To sustain who exactly?? And at what cost?? We all know that it takes money to make money. Bigger teams bosses have invested in their teams and when they win trophies and competitions they have money to re-invest. How much did chelsea pocket from the champions league?? And how much did they spend on players?? Let us consider this when speaking about sustainable models. They got a boost from a wealthy billionaire but by winning competitions and playing good football they are to sustain!!

    1. This was well said George. But i will ask the question again. Are we playing good football?? Does our team have the motivation and passion like the teams that achieved all the things you write about? What happened to the tactical abilities of our players on and of the ball? Our beloved Arsene looks bewildered week in and week out. And if the manager is not confident what do you think the players will be? We are stuck in history while at present our players look out of sorts and way below par compared even to the weak teams in our league. What is happening on the training ground? You spoke of how Wenger revolutionized the game concentrating on diets and fitness etc., is this the same Arsene we are talking about? Some of our players look a bit overweight. Not to mention their mental strength and attitude on the pitch. History will just be that, history. But history is written in the present. What solutions do we have? We have a coach who is called by some as a miracle worker. But that was then and now what??? We need Arsene to get his had out of the Boardroom and politics and economics and get down to what he does best and that is coaching is that too much to ask for.

  5. Arsene has made some infuriating mistakes over the past few years but what I don’t understand from those who want him gone is who they think would have done a better job than him over the past 7 years under those conditions?

    Because we know he now has £70 million in his transfer kitty we assume he’s had massive figures like that all along? I don’t think so (the debts have been bigger, the commercial income has failed to grow etc) and I also believe he wants to spend some of the money he has now – we saw links to many deals at the end of the last window that fell through, clearly the club were trying to bring players in but the deals weren’t agreed and the window shut. That’s not to say they weren’t making mistakes in the market by not closing the deals, just to say we were trying to bring people in and therefore trying to spend that money, not hoard it.

    The problem Arsene has is that over the past three years he’s delt with far too many player losses and bedding new ones in, he’s effectively rebuilding the team every 12 months at the moment and there’s no way to find instant success that way – look at how Chelsea and City took time to find their success despite spending record amounts of money. Part of that is his fault perhaps but the general financial landscape is out of his control and players are easily lured away.

    I’m not married to Wenger, I supported Arsenal before he came and will support them after he leaves but if we’re going to bring a new manager in I want to make sure we’re actually improving the club – people laud Mourinho and rightly so, he’s a great manager, but would he be able to sustain us as a top 4 team for 15 years in a row while working on such a limited budget? Not in my opinion, infact, at the moment I see Wenger as pretty unique on that front – other managers have found success on limited budgets but who’s sustained it?

    1. David Moyes, Harry Redknapp, Guys Huddink (which I can’t spell), Mourinho, one or two experienced Italian managers, one or two Dutch, one or two Spanish. It’s no different from all the other clubs who have found themselves needing a new manager. The great problem in 18 months time – when I trust Arsene will retire – is he has put together a dedicated edifice which someone is going to have to change …. because for 7 (soon to be 8) years it hasn’t worked.

  6. You didn’t suggest a replacement for Wenger, I can only think of one person who I would like , and that would be Guus Hiddink.

    But how do you replace Arsenal’s most successfull manager ever? Herbert Chapman died on the job. George Graham was sacked as he was corrupt, taking bungs. Personally, I believe it’s the board and the Corporate team that massively underachieve with the resources available to them. If you look at the 20 years pre-Wenger, even with the trophies won, I would still never sack him (look at Liverpool & Newcastle after they sacked Robson & Benitez). He’s really elevated the Arsenal to a level nobody could have foresaw.

  7. Basically there are only two trophies worth fighting for in one season for us: Premier League and Champions League.
    Winning FA Cup or League Cup certainly is a lesser achievement than qualifying for Champions League spot. Any sane person would agree with the Boss on this one, well maybe except Kenny Daglish.

    So how’s our chance in those competition?

    In Champions League we are against Real Madrid (who have spent ambitiously since Perez took over 3 years ago but failed to nick the trophy), Barcelona (best football club in the world), and the consistent performer like Bayern Muenchen, Milan and our domestic rivals: Chelsea, and MU (City isn’t included intentionally).
    Once entering the KO phase, no one is guaranteed to win this competition. Not even the spending scale of Madrid and signing the Special One Manager. Chelsea nicked it surprisingly by playing defensive football and it’s once in a lifetime achievement. They would never repeat it again this year. Even the team of the decade, Barcelona couldn’t win Champions League back to back. So there’s no guaranteed method of winning Champions League. You can always try though.

    In Premier League we’re against two sugar daddy clubs who don’t care about balance sheet. Chelsea average losses for 9 years (since Roman taking over) is 70 millions pounds a year. City losses is almost 400 millions in two years. The same amount we spent on building our new stadium.
    We bid for Mata and Hazard but couldn’t compete on wages with Chelsea because they could always pay more than what we offer.
    Any chance of signing Falcao with City and Chelsea entering the auction? No way.
    Spending big is one proven method to win the league. Chelsea and City did it. Mixed it with competent manager. Can Wenger win the league with Chelsea/City resource? I bet you he can. Our problem is lying in squad depth and injury crisis. 2008 and 2011, we’re so close to the top before injury crisis and since March or April dived fast.

    Wenger’s budget for player (transfer + wages) is the 5th in the league for the last 2 years (after City, Chelsea, MU and Liverpool) but could be 4th this season (with Liverpool going for sustainability). His budget would never be above Mancini’s, SAF’s and whoever Chelsea manager’s until FFP is applied. So anything beyond 4th place in the league is an over achievement.

    This is the realistic way to analyse Wenger’s resources in this unfair competition. You can sign any manager in the world, they won’t be able to compete with the other three clubs with our budget because the two sugar daddy clubs can afford a loss every single year, and the other established club (MU) revenue is 1.5 times ours.

  8. Nice read, Andy. I eouldn’t be surprised if Arsene has already picked the date he will leave. He is not a man to leave things to chance. We all know AFC existed before AW & will exist afterwards. I just sometimes feel that it is very easy to believe the grass will always be greener, I hope when AW does leave it will be, I really do.

  9. We all know that AFC breakeven financially and that our profits are based on player sales and, now completed, property sales.

    I can’t think of anyone who a) could have kept us in the top 4 in recent years b) would have been prepared to accect adverse impact on his own career / reputation to see AFC thru the Stadium move.

    We should be a mid table team but we are not! Hail Wenger.

  10. Hi Andy, this article is really giving food for thoughts. I did thought similarly regarding Wenger but I am not sure the one who will replace him will have as much of love and passion for the arsenal fc as wenger has. And who else can work in limited budget and with all the raw youngesters provided to them, which is usually the case at our beloved club?
    There is a saying old Tiger is still better than a young Jackle.

  11. I think the most important part of this interesting blog is the statement that we all ought to be able to discuss our differing points of view without rancour. Amen to that. I’ve intervened a few times in fractious twitter arguments to remind people of this very fact, but received short shrift every time. Perhaps it’s my fault for not minding my own business, but I think it’s a great shame.

    On the points Andy makes about the manager, without being either pro or anti Wenger, I think the analogy to Bergkamp is flawed for obvious reasons. If you’re going to make comparisons, they should be valid, logical ones which compare like with like. Also, I think it’s unfair to beat him with the Pulis stick as this has been a consistent weakness in Wenger’s teams, even during their pomp. Pulis is mereley a modern version of Allerdyce’s Bolton and Blackburn.

  12. its far cheaper to keep a manager than bring one in as they will want to impose there thoughts and bring in players which will cost the club. The board know this and are content with how things are.
    Wneger will not criticise the board as he is a professional and knows this will affect the club long term if he did. He likes the challenge and thats what keeps him at Arsenal.
    However, if you look back at the squad he had in the mid 2000s you will say they are men rather than boys and the contract structure has not supported the retainment of these players. The squad breaks down regualrly and you only have to look at the sale of RVP to show we are not prepared to compete wage wise with the biog boys. We will plod along and its the fans choice as to whether they accept this or not in terms of season ticket sales. Nothing else will change if fans continue to pay to watch a young side finish 3rd or 4th each year and the longer it goes on the more we will slip out of the top four and other teams will leapfrog us if they put more money in the pot.
    The bringing through of players has failed because they havent kept the established ones to balance the experience and we are top heavy each season with new or young players. Look at the mid 2000s squad and the quality of the players and squad we had. We havent got that now and it due to lack of investment.

  13. Moving piece, Yorkie.
    While I respectfully disagree that the game has past Arsene by, (I think he’s getting better with time,) I agree with all your points on supporter-dom and civil but passionate discourse.
    If people want to argue with your point, great. Kind of half the point of Twitter, isn’t it ie an exchange of views and opinions. But personal attacks should generally be off limits. ESPECIALLY for long time Gooners who have nothing to prove of their loyalty. But, really, for anyone who wants to make a point.
    If we haven’t enough self-confidence to let someone else voice a contrary opinion which we can choose to debate or not without getting shitty, then we haven’t the required maturity to be “followed” by grown-ups, and the keys of dad’s car should be taken away from us.
    Personal abuse should not be tolerated among supporters of our club.
    I also agree with your right to say that you think AW should go without calling yourself a WOB. Just like the term, AKB, for many it is a loaded term with way too much reactionary baggage. It is a suit that doesn’t fit.
    In fact, I have come up with my own label for myself. On the basis that Arsene is not always right, but he often is, I am going with Arsene Suspects Best or ASB. Let the baggage loading now begin.
    Thanks for a sincere view, Andy.
    Lotsa Gooner love,

  14. Thanks for all the comments. In reference to comparing Arsene to a boxer I’d suggest that the art of boxing is 50% mental & 50% physical but instead of a boxer how about comparing Arsene to De Niro? Once great, he made brilliant choices and his early body of work truly makes him a legend but these days although still watchable he is a shadow of his former self imo. In regards to whom I’d choose to take over , I’ve given plenty of names via Twitter in the past and indeed today. Thanks again for the very interesting and considered responses to the blog. It’s all about opinions. I guess the only person in the World that knows when Arsene will leave is Arsene himself. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss it though, hopefully in a civil manner. @yorkshiregunner

    1. Wenger is finally changing, got 6-7 mature, established footballers in the last 2 year’s. But he should stop saying the word ‘quality’ with the French accent now. We haven’t got it. 2-3 worldclass players and rest are all average or deadwood. You don’t always have spend money to get talent. Look at Dortmund. Which is the worrying part, that while his approach is right. He’s lost his magic in spotting talent. He buys and continues to rely on players like Gervinho , Ramsey, Santos and all the shite GKs we got. Tell a 15 yr old to get talent for the same money. Perhaps 80% would come back with Moses, Sinclair, Arfa, Tarabt etc. Can’t be that hard? If Arsene cant see how ordinary Gervinho, Ramsey and Santos and Mannone are … then its truly time for change. You can’t keep supporting rubbish players and hope for CL. Just doesn’t work that way. You gotta make the choice!

  15. Cant believe some of these comments. When are people gonna get their heads out of Wengers arse and realise he has lost the plot. The man is tactically inept. He makes decisions which EVERY other fan watching knows is wrong. He is so stubborn and big headed that he won’t listen to anyone else – Bould included (I have heard they have fallen out over Wengers pre-planned suubstitutions) – Quite how you can have pre-planned substitutions anyway is a joke in itself. His persistence with zonal marking. Everyone who says “who else could do a better job with his resources” please stop ignoring the fact that he HAS had money to spend but decides not to because he doesn’t want to LOWER himself as he sees it to Chelsea or City’s way of winning things. He’s so self-indulgent and egotistical he cares more about his little projects and personal goals than winning at all costs which football should be about. We need a WINNER with a winning mentality and sadly AW is no longer that man.

  16. great post. but i still trust wenger and think he will bring back the glory days. my only problem with him is not changing team tactically. he wants to impose his own style and other teams to adapt but to win somtimes you yourself should adapt. many people here pointed out problem with team is turnover of the squad. lots of players coming and going and hence not gelling properly. so my point is won’t it be better to give up on thid comolicated playing style and define everyone’s role. this is where i find wenger lacking but maybe he will change.
    regarding all the points made about borrusia dortmund i suggest u read the recent post by swissramble on their finances. dortmund were deep in financial trouble at one pt. they even got loans from bayern munich to keep them afloat. and as per their recent success its very similar to wenger’s early era. only munich is financially stronger in bundedliga then dortmund and they r cosistently beating them much likr we did to utd in early 2000. so i don’t think klopp is better than wenger

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